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I'm a simple man, not a simpleton. The worst thing any of our leaders can do is to get those two things confused. I'm a warrior for those things I believe in. I stand up for my friends, family, God, and country. All I truly want is for the government to stay as far out of my life as I can get it. Oh and just in case you haven't guessed it; I'm conservative in my bones.


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Thursday, February 19, 2009

Honor Killings: The Truth the Left Won't Face

I would love to take credit for the information I post here but I can't . It is being checked by myself, but as the topic on several different blogs have talked about this, I feel that it is good information to date, however, if I find any part of it to be erroneous I will, of course, remove and correct the posting.

An honor killing is the murder of a family or clan member by one or more fellow family members, when the murderers (and potentially the wider community) believe the victim to have brought dishonour upon the family, clan, or community, normally by (a) utilizing dress codes unacceptable to certain people or (b) engaging in certain sexual acts. These killings result from the perception that defense of honour justifies killing a person whose behavior dishonours their clan or family.
The United Nations Population Fund estimates that the annual worldwide total of honour-killing victims may be as high as 5,000.
Human Rights Watch defines "honor killings" as follows: Honor crimes are acts of violence, usually murder, committed by male family members against female family members, who are held to have brought dishonor upon the family. A woman can be targeted by (individuals within) her family for a variety of reasons, including: refusing to enter into an arranged marriage, being the victim of a sexual assault, seeking a divorce” even from an abusive husband” or (allegedly) committing adultery. The mere perception that a woman has behaved in a way that "dishonors" her family is sufficient to trigger an attack on her life. It should be noted that the loose term honor killing applies to killing of both males and females in cultures that practice it. For example, during the year 2002 in Pakistan, it is estimated that 245 women and 137 men were killed in the name of Karo-Kari in Sindh. These killings target women and men who choose to have relationships outside of their family's tribal affiliation and/or religious community.
Some women who bridge social divides, publicly engage other communities, or adopt some of the customs or the religion of an outside group may thus also be attacked. In countries that receive immigration, some otherwise low-status immigrant men and boys have asserted their dominant patriarchal status by inflicting honor killings on women family members who have participated in public life, for example in feminist and integration politics. Women in the family do support the honor killing of one of their own, when they agree that the family is the property and asset of men and boys. Alternatively, matriarchs may be motivated not by personal belief in the misogynistic ideology of women as property, but rather by tragically pragmatic calculations. Sometimes a mother may support an honor killing of an "offending" female family member in order to preserve the honor of other female family members since many men in these societies will refuse to marry the sister of a "shamed" female whom the family has not chosen to punish, thereby "purifying" the family name by murdering the suspected female.
There is some evidence that homosexuality can also be perceived as grounds for honor killing by relatives. In one case, a gay Jordanian man who was shot and wounded by his brother. In another case, a homosexual Turkish student, Ahmet Yildiz, who was shot outside a cafe and later died in hospital. His friends believe that he "was the victim of the country's first gay honor killing."

Honour suicides
A recent phenomenon of Honour suicides occurs in Turkey. There has been many cases when people order or pressure a woman to kill herself; this may be done so that the people avoid penalties for murdering her. A special envoy for the named Yakin Erturk, who was sent to Turkey to investigate suspicious suicides amongst Kurdish girls, was quoted by The New York Times as saying that some suicides appeared in Kurdish-inhabited regions of Turkey to be "honour killings disguised as a suicide or an accident."

Over 80 Iraqi women in Diyala province committed suicide, to escape the shame of having been raped. They choose to become suicide bombers to escape the shame; startlingly, their rapes were planned in advance by 51 year old Iraqi woman Samira Jassam, who confessed to Iraqi police that she organised their rapes so she could later persuade each of them that to become a suicide bomber was the only way to escape their shame.

According to the UN in 2002: "The report of the Special Rapporteur ... concerning cultural practices in the family that are violent towards women (E/CN.4/2002/83), indicated that honour killings had been reported in Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Morocco, Pakistan, Punjab, Syrian Arab Republic, Turkey, Yemen, and other Mediterranean and Persian Gulf countries, and that they had also taken place in western countries such as France, Germany and the United Kingdom, within migrant communities. "There is a strong positive correlation between violence against women, and women's social power and equality; and a baseline of development, associated with access to basic resources, health care, and human capital, such as literacy - as research by Richard G. Wilkinson shows. In a male dominated society, there is more inequality between men, and women lose out not just physically and economically, but crucially because men who feel subordinated will often try to regain a sense of their authority in turn by excessive subordination of those below them, i.e. women. (Interestingly, he says that in male-dominated societies, not only do women suffer more violence, and worse health: but so do men.)
According to Widney Brown, advocacy director for Human Rights Watch, the practice "goes across cultures and across religions."
In 2005 Der Spiegel Newspaper reports: 'In the past four months, six Muslim women living in Berlin have been brutally murdered by family members', and goes on to cover the case of Hatun - killed by her brother for not staying with her husband of forced marriage, but of 'living like a German'. Precise statistics on how many women die every year in such honor killings are hard to come by, as many crimes are never reported, said Myria Boehmecke of the Tuebingen-based women's group Terre des Femmes which, among other things, tries to protect Muslim girls and women from oppressive families. The Turkish women's organization Papatya has documented 40 instances of honor killings in Germany since 1996. Hatun's brother and murderer, was convicted of murder and jailed for nine years and three months by a German court in 2006.
Every year in the UK, about 13 women are victims of honour killing, occurring almost exclusively to date within Asian and Middle Eastern families and often cases are unresolved due to the unwillingness of family, relatives and communities to testify. A 2006 BBC poll for the Asian network in the UK found that 1 in 10 of the 500 young Asians polled said that they could condone the murder of someone who dishonoured their family In the UK, in December 2005, Nazir Afzal, Director, West London, of Britain's Crown Prosecution Service, stated that the United Kingdom has seen "at least a dozen honour killings" between 2004 and 2005. While precise figures do not exist for the perpetrators' cultural backgrounds, Diana Nammi of the UK's Iranian and Kurdish Women's Rights Organisation is reported to have said: "about two-thirds are Muslim. Yet they can also be Hindu, Sikh and even eastern European."
Another well known case was of Heshu Yones, who was stabbed to death by her father when her family heard a love song dedicated to her and suspected she had a boyfriend. (Some news sources attribute this to a different woman, and others claim that she was killed after being lured to Pakistan.) Another girl suffered a similar fate in Turkey.
Middle East
In April 2008 it came to light that some months prior, a Saudi woman was killed by her father for chatting on Facebook to a man. The murder only came to light when a Saudi Cleric referred to the case in an attempt to demonstrate the 'strife' that the website 'causes'.
A June 2008 Report by the Turkish Prime Ministry's Human Rights Directorate, says that in Istanbul alone, there is one honour killing every week; and reports over 1,000 during the last 5 years. It adds that metropolitan cities are the location of many of these.
UNICEF reported that in the Gaza strip and the West bank that "According to 1999 estimates, more than two-thirds of all murders were most likely 'honour' killings."
In 2003 James Emery (adjunct professor of anthropology at Metropolitan State College of Denver and expert on Afghan politics and the Taliban) wrote: In the Palestinian communities of the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Israel, and Jordan, women are executed in their homes, in open fields, and occasionally in public, sometimes before crowds of cheering onlookers. Honor killings account for virtually all of the murders of Palestinian women in these areas.
As many as 133 women were killed in the Iraqi city of Basra alone in 2006 -- 79 for violation of "Islamic teachings" and 47 for honour killings, according to IRIN, the news branch of the U.N.'s Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. Amnesty International claims honour killings are also conducted by armed groups, not the government, upon politically active women and those who did not follow a strict dress code, as well as women who are perceived as human rights defenders.
In Israel, an Arab honour killer was punished in March 2008 by being sentenced to jail for 16 years over [the] 'honour killing' of his sister" in the Hamda Abu Ghanem case.
Jordan is considered to one of the most liberal countries in the Middle East yet they still allow honor killings to be practiced. Under articles 340 and 98, there is very little justice shown to women. In Jordan there is minimal gender discrimination and women are permitted to vote but men are not punished or have a minimal punishments for killing their wives or female family members if they have brought dishonor to their family. Families often have sons who are considered minors, under the age of 18, to commit the honor killings. A loophole in the juvenile law allows minors to serve time in a juvenile detention centre and they are released with a clean criminal record at the age of 18. Rana Husseini, a leading journalist on the topic of honor killings, states that under the existing law, people found guilty of committing honor killings often receive sentences as light as six months in prison. There has been much outcry in Jordan for the amendment of Article 340 and 98. In 1999, King Abdullah created a council to review the gender inequalities in the country. The Council returned with a recommendation to repeal Article 340. The cabinet approved the recommendation, the measure was presented to parliament twice in November 1999 and January 2000 and in both cases, though approved by the upper house, it failed to pass the elected lower house. In 2001 after parliament was suspended, a number of temporary laws were created which were subject to parliamentary ratification. One of the amendments was that husbands would no longer be exonerated for murdering unfaithful wives, but instead the circumstances would be considered as evidence for mitigating punishments. Also to continue with the efforts of creating gender equality, women were given the same reduction in punishment if found guilty of the crime. But parliament returned to session in 2003 and the ratifications were rejected by the lower house after two successful readings in the upper house.
North America
A 2007 study by Dr. Amin Muhammad of . Amnesty International's report noted "the failure of the authorities to prevent these killings by investigating and punishing the perpetrators." Recent cases include that of three teenage girls who were buried alive after refusing arranged marriages. Another case was that of Taslim Khatoon Solangi, 17, of Hajna Shah village in Khairpur district, which became widely reported after the graphic account of her father 57-year-old Gul Sher Solangi, who allegedly tortured and murdered his eight months pregnant daughter on March 7 on the orders of her father-in-law, who accused her of carrying a child conceived out of wedlock. Statistically, honor killings enjoy high level of support in Pakistani society, despite widespread condemnation from human rights groups. In 2002 alone, over According to Reuters, about 382 people were killed in the name of honor (karo-kari) in the Sindh province of Pakistan. Of these, 245 were women and 137 were men. Over the course of six years, over 4,000 women have fallen victim to this practice in Pakistan from 1999-2004. Pakistani lawmakers have controversially used Islamic scripture to support honor killings. More recently (in 2005), the average annual number of honor killings for the whole nation ran up to more than 10,000 per year. According to woman rights advocates, The concepts of women as property and honor are so deeply entrenched in the social, political and economic fabric of Pakistan that the government, for the most part, ignores the daily occurrences of women being killed and maimed by their families." Frequently, women murdered in "honour" killings are recorded as having committed suicide or died in accidents.

Honour killing as a cultural practice
Sharif Kanaana, professor of anthropology at An Amnesty International statement adds: "The regime of honor is unforgiving: women on whom suspicion has fallen are not given an opportunity to defend themselves, and family members have no socially acceptable alternative but to remove the stain on their honor by attacking the woman." Hina Jilani, lawyer and human rights activist said this, "The right to life of women in Pakistan is conditional on their obeying social norms and traditions."
A July 2008 Turkish study by a team from Dicle University on honor killings in the Southeastern Anatolia Region has so far shown that little if any social stigma is attached to the act. It also comments that the practise is not related to a feudal societal structure, "there are also perpetrators who are well-educated university graduates. Of all those surveyed, 60 percent are either high school or university gradates or at the very least, literate."
Honour killing in national legal codes
According to the report of the Special Rapporteur submitted to the 58th session of the United Nations Commission on Human Rights (2002) concerning cultural practices in the family that reflect violence against women (E/CN.4/2002/83):
The Special Rapporteur indicated that there had been contradictory decisions with regard to the honour defense in Brazil, and that legislative provisions allowing for partial or complete defense in that context could be found in the penal codes of Argentina, Ecuador, Egypt, Guatemala, Iran, Israel, Jordan, span id="SPELLING_ERROR_54" class="blsp-spelling-error">flagrante delicto (but without premeditation) include:
Syria: Article 548 states that "He who catches his wife or one of his ascendants, descendants or sister committing adultery (flagrante delicto) or illegitimate sexual acts with another and he killed or injured one or both of them benefits from an exemption of penalty."
Countries that allow husbands to kill only their wives in flagrante delicto (based upon the Napoleonic code) include: Morocco: Revisions to Morocco's criminal code in 2003 helped improve women's legal status by eliminating unequal sentencing in adultery cases. Article 418 of the penal code granted extenuating circumstances to a husband who murders, injures, or beats his wife and/or her partner, when catching them in flagrante delicto while committing adultery. While this article has not been repealed, the penalty for committing this crime is at least now the same for both genders. In two Latin American countries, similar laws were struck down over the past two decades: according to human rights lawyer Julie Mertus "in Brazil, until 1991 wife killings were considered to be noncriminal 'honor killings'; in just one year, nearly eight hundred husbands killed their wives. Similarly, in Colombia, until 1980, a husband legally could kill his wife for committing adultery."

Countries where honour killing is not legal but is known to occur include:
Turkey: In Turkey, persons found guilty of this crime are sentenced to life in prison. There are well documented cases, where Turkish courts have sentenced whole families to life imprisonment for an honour killing. The most recent was on January 13, 2009, where a Turkish Court sentenced five members of the same Kurdish family to life imprisonment for the "honour killing" of Naile Erdas, 16, who got pregnant as a result of rape.
Iraqi Kurdistan: In Kurdistan, women are killed nearly every day for 'dishonoring' their families] Honor killing was legal until 2002 in Iraq
Pakistan: Honour killings are known as Karo Kari. The practice is supposed to be prosecuted under ordinary murder, but in practice police and prosecutors often ignore it. Often a man must simply claim the killing was for his honor and he will go free. Nilofar Bakhtiar, advisor to Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz, stated that in 2003, as many as 1,261 women were murdered in honor killings. On December 8, 2004, under international and domestic pressure, Pakistan enacted a law that made honour killings punishable by a prison term of seven years, or by the death penalty in the most extreme cases. Women's rights organizations were, however, wary of this law as it stops short of outlawing the practice of allowing killers to buy their freedom by paying compensation to the victim's relatives. Women's rights groups claimed that in most cases it is the victim's immediate relatives who are the killers, so inherently the new law is just eyewash. It did not alter the provisions whereby the accused could negotiate pardon with the victim's family under the Islamic provisions. In March 2005 the Pakistani parliament rejected a bill which sought to strengthen the law against the practice of honour killing. However, the bill was brought up again, and in November 2006, it passed. It is doubtful whether or not the law would actually help women.
Egypt: A number of studies on honour crimes by The Centre of Islamic and Middle Eastern Law, at the School of Oriental and African Studies in London, includes one which reports on Egypt's legal system, noting a gender bias in favor of men in general, and notably article 17 of the Penal Code : judicial discretion to allow reduced punishment in certain circumstance, often used in honour killings case.


Z said...

Just saw your post just below this while I was typing. Man, Greywolfe, ME TOO..DROWNING is the word. Awful.

As for honor killings? What a nightmare. I live with a European and TRUST ME they are ALL OVER Europe. Most governments there don't condone this ... stuff. Germany sure does NOT. AND they can send a hateful imam home the afternoon they hear him preaching against Germany, too. WOULD that America would go back to being America.

Think it'll ever happen?

repsac3 said...

Your title doesn't fit your post, GreyWolfe... There is nothing about "the left" not facing "the truth" of these killings anywhere in your post.

Honor killings exist and--while I've not checked your sources--you probably have good information about the locations & frequency of them, here.

If I were to make any complaint at all, it would be that your "North America" section does not discuss honor killings in North America... Near as I can tell, the honor killings you write about under the "North America" heading actually took place in Pakistan, and were supposed to be a part of the "Middle East" section above. While honor killings have taken place here in the US, you didn't post about any of them.

If the title is meant to be a response to my questioning whether the murder of Aasyia Hussan should be called an honor killing, given the paucity of facts we have so far, I can only once again repeat that while it is possible that her murder will turn out to be an honor killing, to call it one now, based simply on his Muslim heritage and the viciousness of the attack, is premature, and not fair to either Muslims as a whole or to the victims of legitimate honor killings.

The minute we start misusing the term and dubbing every Muslim murder of a family member an honor killing, we reduce the effectiveness of all your fine facts and the people who've worked to collect and report them to zero. Without standards, the term "honor killing" (& all it entails, as you've laid out here) will become as meaningless as any other social/political epithet.

Greywolfe said...

Of course the title fits. You are not the only liberal I correspond with Repsac3. And not the only one that I observe. You are merely the only one with the mental fortitude to debate me without attacks. I do appreciate that.

As for the reason that I don't add more stats for America, they do not yet exist. Europe has been "assimilating" Muslims far longer than we have so the statistics are clearer there. America does not yet seem to see the danger that the historical beliefs and current teachings of Muslims present. Or rather, the political prostitutes that bow to political correctness won't allow for that vision. Similar to how Arthur Neville Chamberlain couldn't see how the Nazis were heading.

For some reason there are those in our country that see appeasement as the way to deal with the Islamic threat, rather than confrontation. I rather think that if Chamberlain had confronted Hitler instead of appeasing him, then WWII probably could have been avoided. Instead he goes down in history as an ineffectual twit, who allowed WWII and the extermination of millions of people to happen due to his weakness.

Certain inferences can be made about Muslims do to their history. In every western nation that they migrated to, they have started out meek as milk toast and within a very ,relatively, few years, held enough power due to numbers to force governments to bow to their desires. I do not want Sharia Law to have ANY sway in ANY court in the U.S. the way it has in some other foreign courts. To believe that those who have come have come to do differently than their predecessors is foolish, naieve, and a rejection of the Truths that history can teach.

See what has come before and arm yourself against it. If that smacks, in this case, of xenophobia, then well and good if it keeps our people safe.

Mahndisa S. Rigmaiden said...

02 20 09

Repsac3 is right about the data you have collected. You have clearly done a lot of homework, but on this issue you are somewhat misinformed. Canada is in North America and they have been dealing with this issue for a few years now, which is how to assimilate those with radically different beliefs into the mainstream? They have had a couple of honor killings, unfortunately. See here.

Here is a horrible case in Texas, as a matter of fact.

This issue isn't just relegated to places in the Middle East or Europe; it is happening all over the globe and shows the sharp contrast in cultures.

But I believe your personal biases may have contributed to your attribution of honor killings to Muslims. They occur outside of that faith as well.

In an intersting case in Lodi (a town about fifty miles from me) a Sikh man killed his daughters fiance because he was from a lower class and his daughter had an abortion for him. The father was so pissed that he shot and killed the fiancee for his daughters honor. So this notion of taking the law into your own hands to somehow clear your family's name from shame is something that folks around the world seem to do...

I also feel as though its a human rights issue. Sure there are those on the left who condone anything unreasonable and blame it on the intrinsic culture of whomever, but we know they are fulla crap. However, there are other liberals who are outraged by this sickness.

Human beings need to care about other human beings regardless of ideological or religious basis. The good book tells me to love my neighbor and that the Good Samaritan did the right thing.
For this reason, human rights abuses should be tackled by Everyone!

Joe said...

repsac3: We constantly seem to confuse that which is defined in a court of law with that which is held as publicly evident.

The killing of Aasyia Hussan has all of the earmarks of an "honor killing." Whether the law will eventually see it that way remains to be seen.

In an American court of law, one is presumed innocent until proven guilty. However, that has NOTHING to do with whether or not the alleged crime was actually committed.

A person kills someone might be found not guilty due to lack of evidence. That does not mean he/she did not do the crime, only that it could not be proven.

In the mean time, quite apart from what happens in a courtroom, I have every right to presume someone guilty, with or without a verdict (think O.J. Simpson).

In the case of Aasyia Hussan, given the direction of the evidence, this was an "honor killing." Whether that can be proven in court is another matter.

repsac3 said...

I'm sorry, Joe, but I don't understand how what you're saying is in any way a response to my comment. At no time did I say that it is for our legal system to decide whether or not this is an honor killing. (In fact, I'm pretty sure that "honor killing" isn't a legal term here in the US, so I don't think it'd even be possible for a court to make a finding on that question one way or the other.)

What I said was, I don't believe that you, me, or much of anyone else except the murderer and perhaps the local police investigating the crime currently has enough facts to definitively say this was or was not an honor killing.

You say that "the killing of Aasyia Hassan has all the earmarks of an honor killing," but you don't list what you believe those earmarks are. To me that is the heart of the matter, and I'd be curious to read your list of earmarks and how this crime fits them.

I'm not saying this absolutely isn't an honor killing. What I'm saying is, according to my standards for judging these things, we currently lack the facts to be certain either way.

You're welcome to believe anything you wish, judging according to whatever standards you have. All I'm saying is, terms like honor killing lose their meaning if they're applied too capriciously too often. I'd like to see more than a Muslim perp and a dead female relative before I say honor killing.

Greywolfe said...

"You say that "the killing of Aasyia Hassan has all the earmarks of an honor killing," but you don't list what you believe those earmarks are. To me that is the heart of the matter, and I'd be curious to read your list of earmarks and how this crime fits them."

Repsac3, the Human Rights Watch defines "honor killings" as follows: Honor crimes are acts of violence, usually murder, committed by male family members against female family members, who are held to have brought dishonor upon the family. A woman can be targeted by (individuals within) her family for a variety of reasons, including: refusing to enter into an arranged marriage, being the victim of a sexual assault, seeking a divorce” even from an abusive husband” or (allegedly) committing adultery.

Now let's look at what happened. We have a Muslim man with a wife that just filed for divorce. Both were from Muslim nations that hold to the idea of "honor killing". The manner in which this, otherwise, upstanding businessman went off on his wife while she was on the phone with her sister and then beheaded her is certainly in line with the above definition.

I do find it interesting, not that I've seen you do this repsac3, that in this nation, if a person beats up a gay man, black, hispanic, or any other minority, it is labeled a hate crime and no proof other than the violence and the fact that the offender did not belong to the same minority group or sexual preferance as the victim, is needed to convict.

However, let a pet muslim get his titty in a wringer like this, and everyone bends over backward to defend his possible motives because it's not PC to slam the man's ethnic beliefs.

repsac3 said...

I tried to wait for Joe to weigh in before responding, but it's been over 24 hours...

"Both were from Muslim nations that hold to the idea of "honor killing"."

Both were here in this nation, that does not. The perpetrator in particular, has been here for something like 30 years. Besides, it really doesn't follow that because there are Pakistanis who subscribe to the idea of honor killings, and the laws regarding such things in Pakistan are more lenient than they should be, ALL Pakistanis everywhere support honor killings & are likely to commit one if the opportunity presents itself.

"The manner in which this, otherwise, upstanding businessman went off on his wife while she was on the phone with her sister and then beheaded her is certainly in line with the above definition."

Your definition doesn't actually speak to method. All it says is "acts of violence." In fact, a few of the more famous honor killings on our continent have been shootings, rather than beheadings. (Have there actually been any Muslim beheadings deemed honor killings here in North America? I can't think of any...)

On the other hand, two of the more famous murders of wives here in the states have involved beheadings, and neither was carried out by a Muslim man. Scott Peterson and OJ Simpson each decapitated their wives, and I can't recall anyone suggesting that either case was an honor killing.

Then there is the issue of dishonor to the person or family. Has there been any factual testimony suggesting that this was the issue between the Hassans, or is it all just speculation? Are there any quotes of Mo Hassan discussing his or his family's honor at any time before, during, or after the crime?

I suggest that there was not.

Did Mo Hassan give any indication that his Muslim heritage or religion made him more concerned about or demanding of male dominance over women?

Well, he was a wife beater, but that is far from being a strictly Muslim characteristic. And on the other hand, he also freely gave his wife much of the credit for the creation & successful running of BridgesTV, which seems to paint him as a man who wasn't all that hung up on females being modern & successful outside the home... Not only didn't he forbid it, he helped to make it happen.

OK, that's your definition. But allow me to provide another. Phyllis Chesler, a right wing blogger and professor emerita of psychology and women's studies at the College of Staten Island, has identified 8 characteristics of honor killings. Let's see how well they match up with what we know so far...

Characteristics of honor killings:
Committed mainly by Muslims against Muslim girls/young adult women.

Obviously, I don't even buy the premise, as honor killings are perpetrated by a good number of non-Muslims, too. That said, Aasiya Hassan was not all that young.

Committed mainly by fathers against their teenage daughters and daughters in their early twenties. Wives and older-age daughters may also be victims, but to a lesser extent.

A wife can be a target of an honor killing, but it isn't as common as a young daughter.

Carefully planned. Death threats are often used as a means of control.

There is no record of death threats in this case, and no indication of planning before the murder.

The planning and execution involve multiple family members and can include mothers, sisters, brothers, male cousins, uncles, grandfathers, etc. If the girl escapes, the extended family will continue to search for her to kill her.

There is no record that anyone else in or out of the family knew about or was involved in her killing.

The reason given for the honor killing is that the girl or young woman has "dishonored" the family.

As I said above, there is no record that family honor played any part in this case. No one in or around the Hassan family has indicated that honor was something Mo Hassan was very conscience of.

At least half the time, the killings are carried out with barbaric ferocity. The female victim is often raped, burned alive, stoned or beaten to death, cut at the throat, decapitated, stabbed numerous times, suffocated slowly, etc.

From reports I've read, this was a brutal killing, and did involve decapitation. However, reports are now saying that Aasiya Hassan was stabbed to death, and that her decapitation may've been committed after the victim was already dead.

Besides, how many murders are not brutal, and carried out with barbaric ferocity?

The extended family and community valorize the honor killing. They do not condemn the perpetrators in the name of Islam. Mainly, honor killings are seen as normative.

Unless you count those in the Muslim community denying it was an honor killing (which is kind of a self-fulfilling prophesy--You say it's an honor killing based in Islam, and use the fact that Muslims deny that as proof that it is one), no one is valorizing the murder or the murderer, and they are condemning the killing in both the name of Islam & us law.

The murderer(s) do not show remorse. Instead, they experience themselves as "victims," defending themselves from the girl's actions and trying to restore their lost family honor.

One officer did say that Mo did not seem remorseful, but other reports have him in shock. Either way, there are no reports of his talking about himself being the victim, or defending himself from her wanting to divorce him, or of having restored family honor.

I'm not saying it can't be an honor killing, but I am saying that so far, we lack the facts to call it one. Maybe when we know more, my scorecard here will look different, but that day hasn't come, yet.

Greywolfe said...

(Have there actually been any Muslim beheadings deemed honor killings here in North America? I can't think of any...)

Repsac3, see Mahndisa's comments above. She posted some links to similar crimes.

Aside from that, you mentioned that muslims here have denounced the killing. In the Koran, Mohammed instructed a follower to lie if he had to (in order to assassinate one of Mohammad's enemies). The principle here is clear: If it helps Islam, decieving people is ok.

For instance, how many times have we heard Islamic Immams say one thing on western TV and press, and then turn around and tell their own followers something entirely different.

Your assertion from an earlier comment that those are the sick Muslims and the few here (relatively speaking in consideration with the 1 billion worldwide) that denounce such actions are ok, flies in the face of history.

That's like saying Hitler was a maniac, but the other members of the Nazi party were OK. The problem here is with the groupthink mentality that Islam enforces. Just as the Nazi party did, so too does the fascist doctrines found in the Koran.

The thing that made the Koran hard to swallow when reading it was the fact that it doesn't go in order of when it was written. Instead it's written from longest revelation to the shortest. And it's ungodly repetative. I found one that someone wiser than me put into chronological order and took out the repetition, and it's much easier to get around. Oh yeah, it's in English.

Trust me Repsac3, there are evil religions. This one qualifies.

repsac3 said...

Repsac3, see Mahndisa's comments above. She posted some links to similar crimes.

Rather than detract from it, Mahndisa's links support my statement about honor killings involving beheadings here in North America. In both of those cases that she links to, the victims were shot, not beheaded. (and in one of the cases, the perpetrator of the honor killing isn't even a Muslim.) Even in the first link she posted--the Google search for "honor killing Canada"--there are no beheadings among the earliest results listed for the the search (I stopped after checking every link through the second page.) I'm not saying there are no honor killings involving beheading on this continent, but I am saying I don't know of any. (To be fair, I haven't looked for any, though... My point is, the most popular cases of domestic honor killings referenced are not beheadings.)

Aside from that, you mentioned that muslims here have denounced the killing. In the Koran, Mohammed instructed a follower to lie if he had to (in order to assassinate one of Mohammad's enemies). The principle here is clear: If it helps Islam, decieving people is ok.

That is exactly the kind of catch-22 reasoning I referred to earlier, when I said that some of those in the "certainty that this was an honor killing" camp use Muslim denials as proof that this really is an honor killing.

Your statement reminds me of the old test for witchcraft; tie a large stone to the accused witch & drop her in a lake. If she doesn't drown, it proves she is a witch, and must be put to death. If she does drown, the dead woman wasn't a witch. I ask you whether you know of anyone who would pass such a test, once accused...

Whatever you happen to believe about Muslims, the Koran, and lying, or the fact that Muslims say honor killing is not a Muslim trait, and that Aasyia Hassan was not the victim of an honor killing, their denials (or for that matter, your contrary beliefs) are not proof of anything in this case.

Your assertion from an earlier comment that those are the sick Muslims and the few here (relatively speaking in consideration with the 1 billion worldwide) that denounce such actions are ok, flies in the face of history.

Your wording here is unclear, but if you're suggesting that I said or implied that I have any sympathy for those fundamentalist Muslims who use their religion to justify bad acts, you're way off base. I do not, and I have no problem with condemning them personally or having our government take action to bring them to justice.

That's like saying Hitler was a maniac, but the other members of the Nazi party were OK. The problem here is with the groupthink mentality that Islam enforces. Just as the Nazi party did, so too does the fascist doctrines found in the Koran.

I understand that you believe something along the order of "the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim," but I don't share your feelings. Your analogy to Nazism is faulty anyhow, unless you apply it to all Germans in the country at the time, and believe that the allies should've wiped them all out. We morally condemned & legally punished those who carried out Nazi acts or openly expressed Nazi beliefs, but not all Germans (or even all Nazis.)

The fact that the vast majority of Muslims in this country & in the world live peaceful lives and are not out killing infidels, puts the lie to your theories... ...even if you believe that they're all just little sleeper cells, lying in wait for the word from Allah or whomever, when they will all rise up & slit the throat of (if not behead) every non-Muslim.

The fact that there are bad Muslims can no more be used to prove that all Muslims are bad, than the fact that Hitler was a christian be used to prove that all christians are Nazis, or evil, or left handed, or anything else Hitler was.

Greywolfe said...

I never said that all honor killings are done by beheading. I just inferred that it was a prefered method used by Muslims. Also, I've never said anything about killing all muslims. I just don't trust any of them.

You are correct that not all Muslims are bad. Some are just as wishy-washy about the Koran as some "Christians" are about the Bible. But that doesn't change the tenets of Islam. It just means that a minority of Muslims are apostates in the eyes of the majority.

Only the politically correct crowd says that they are even close to the majority.

Mahndisa S. Rigmaiden said...

02 23 09

"Also, I've never said anything about killing all muslims. I just don't trust any of them. "

How many Muslims have you met GW? Try not to be so harsh because one might save your life one day. Remember the story of the good Sumaritan.

While you make valid claims that some of the tenets of Islam are wretched, if we looked at certain aspects of the Old Testament via exegesis, one might say the same thing. And no I am not saying that both religions are morally equivalent, I cannot speak to that.

More or less, there are evil people who have used their religion to do horrible things to other humans and I have seen people who CLAIM to be Christians rob, lie and steal and seen people who CLAIM to be Muslim handle liquor, sell predatory loans (which the Koran is against) and so forth.

Religion and faith keep us together by providing a set of moral practices. And while you disagree with what you have read in the Koran, I assure you there are some things that Muslims, Jews and Christians have in common in abundance. One thing is in handling financial transactions. I will blog about this in a few days...Needless to say, we are living in a very unethical world and the banking system by CONSTRUCTION is sinful. Usury is a cornerstone of our markets and is unsustainable. I pray for all my fellow Americans having credit issues right about now, cuz things may get worse.

But I think that is an indication that we are living in a sinful world. When the poor starve NOT because there is no food but because of costs. When a creditor can sue you for everything when you have nothing and charge fees such that your suit amount is twice the amount of your original credit, something is amiss.

There are two things that I want our President to do:
1.Force positive change in the banking system.
2.Change views and funding sources for abortions.

Nice debate that it doesn't degenerate into name calling.

repsac3 said...

I never said that all honor killings are done by beheading. I just inferred that it was a prefered method used by Muslims.

I'm sorry to've misunderstood... But I hope you understand how it happened. By quoting my saying that I can't find a single North American honor killing (Muslim or otherwise) by beheading, and then referencing Mahndisa's links to stories of North American honor killings in reply, I thought you were using her links to rebut what I'd said. My point was, they don't.

I'd have to do a bit of research to see if beheading really is a preferred Muslim method of honor killing (or just killing, even), but my suspicion is it's more of an intentional piece of gruesome "theatre" performed (& often videotaped, as you know) by Islamist extremists, and used to scare people into supporting their cause, or at least getting in line & not making trouble by speaking or fighting against them. When compared to the numbers of other methods of intentional death used by Muslims, we'd probably find it isn't all that popular or preferred.

Also, I've never said anything about killing all muslims. I just don't trust any of them.

I didn't mean to imply you said anything else. Saying that "the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim" isn't saying you want them all dead. It's saying that the dead ones are the only good (or if you prefer, "trustworthy") ones.

Only the politically correct crowd says that they [the "wishy washy, non murderous Muslims] are even close to the majority.

I'm only going by what I see, Grey... It isn't the majority that is either speaking or acting like extremists, and I just don't buy your theory that they're all just lying about their true beliefs until the time is right.

Greywolfe said...

Their push for Sharia law in many EU nations isn't exactly a moderate stand. Only in N. America are they still weak enough to have to walk softly. They don't do that in europe.

I know this for a fact. In Germany, where I was stationed for over a year, while in the Army, the Germans are now a statistical MINORITY. Members of Muslim nations now make up a majority of the population. And they have been pushing for Sharia law since the 90's. Same for England. In 1950 there were two mosques in London. Now there are over a hundred.

Disa, I've met, both here and in Germany, literally hundreds of Muslims. After I got out of the Army I took a job in Furniture sales, in Tulsa. High end place with a LOT of Middle Easterners. Go figure, those that aren't being arrested for associating/funding terrorists have quite a bit of cash. The American dream is alive, just not for us infadels. (tongue in cheek)

I found many that I found enjoyable company, but I found none that I would trust farther than I could kick them. Their beliefs and social mores are just too different. There is a large part of their cultural psyche that can't get out of the 4th century.

Are there "westernized" muslims that I think are harmless? Yeah, I'll give you that. But I remember the cheering in the streets of EVERY muslim country after 9/11, and it's video footage I'll never forget or forgive. And I won't trust them. Not till they expunge the radicals from their midst. Until I see major efforts on the part of Muslims to take up weapons and kill these bastards where they live, I'll never trust them. Not make peace deals with them as they have in Pakistan. Fund them in Iran, Syria, Libia, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and United Arab Emerates.

Until all these countries make radical Islam a capital offense and kill the radicals within, I'll never trust. Until the Muslim nations in the far east stop killing, burning, and bombing their own, I'll never trust.

As I've said, Nothing in the last hundred years has been given to the society at large by Islam, except terror.

janice_phil said...

wow!!! great blog..great post..ive learn big time..ty

Greywolfe said...

Thanks janice_phil. I appreciate you coming by and giving your kudos. I hope you'll look back at some of my earlier posts and find some gems amongst the dross, so to speak.

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